The Passion People Podcast

Ep.Log Media

カテゴリー：Society & Culture

Passionate people, deep conversations. Thoughts on how to deal with listening to your heart and some examples to guide us forward. The Passion People Podcast is a series of impromptu conversations about following a passion, making it manifest, and what all comes with it.

Hosted by Naga Subramanya B B
The Passion People Podcast is a part of Ep.Log Media Podcast Network
for partnership/advertising you can contact us on bonjour@eplog.media

2021年03月30日

Make content that matters with Jay Acunzo

For our Season 3 finale, Naga is in conversation with podcaster and content guru - Jay Acunzo to discuss, what differentiates great creators from all others, how to find your first 10-50 true fans? Is there a one size fits all approach to monetization?

Reach out to Jay Acunzo and Check out his content -

Member Group (Paid) - https://jayacunzo.com/membership

Podcast - 3 Clips – https://jayacunzo.com/3-clips

Podcast - Unthinkable – https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast

Twitter – https://twitter.com/jayacunzo

Website - https://jayacunzo.com/

Books: Break the Wheel: Question Best Practices, Hone Your Intuition, and Do Your Best Work

Reach out to Naga –

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

More about EpLog Media -

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For advertising/partnerships send you can send us an email at bonjour@eplog.media.

If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organisation.

The said content is not obscene or blasphemous or defamatory of any event and/or person deceased or alive or in contempt of court or breach of contract or breach of privilege, or in violation of any provisions of the statute, nor hurt the sentiments of any religious groups/ person/government/non-government authorities and/or breach or be against any declared public policy of any nation or state.

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jay Acunzo: [00:00:00] you hear the phrase creator economy used quite often. And I think what we're living through is a very dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to earn a living and a comfortable living at that using their creativity.

[00:00:15]it's also very dangerous because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do this, you need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think fame and influence is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.

[00:00:31]most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially building on rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform you actually own like your own website and email list.

[00:00:43] Naga S: [00:00:43] Hey Jay. Hello and welcome to the passionate people podcast. And thank you for taking the time

[00:00:48] to be on the show.

[00:00:49]Jay Acunzo: [00:00:49] Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it,

[00:00:50]Naga S: [00:00:50] Jay, you have an extremely unique perspective, given your background in content marketing, the kind of shows that you've launched and the amazing work that you do at three clips.

[00:01:01]So as, as we start. I would love to just get like a 30,000 feet view of the content landscape from your lens and how it looked at the start of 2020 and how COVID has changed it.

[00:01:13]Jay Acunzo: [00:01:13] Yeah. I'd love to answer. I spend very little time thinking about the trends and what everyone else is doing, because if I did that, I think I would probably break down.

[00:01:22]I'm so focused on trying to. Serve the audience that I'd like to serve that it's difficult to follow the trends, but I will say that I think what we're living through, you hear the phrase creator economy used quite often. And I think what we're living through is a very dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to earn a living and a comfortable living at that using their creativity.

[00:01:46]Because on the one hand you have momentum. Which is helping more and more people say, well, I have this craft, for me, I like to create shows. I like to tell stories about the workplace. Somebody else might focus on a different niche, [00:02:00] but I have this creative craft. It's never been a better time to go and build your own audience, which by the way means moving off of social media, using social media, but not stopping there, moving people to your website and your email list, building an audience.

[00:02:14]And serving that audience more deeply with products and experiences that they pay for. So it's never been a better time for that, but it's also very dangerous because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do this, you need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think fame and influence is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.

[00:02:39]So I think where I'd like to see this all go. Is to have a middle-class develop. So middle-class in a, like a classic sense that there's a sociologist named Dennis Gilbert. He wrote a great book called the American class structure in an age of growing and an inequality. And Gilbert defines middle-class as upper and lower middle-class.

[00:02:59] So there's two little segments, but they combined to make up about 45 to 50% of the total population. And that 45 to 50% is judged based on their ability to have a comfortable standard of living significant economic security, considerable work autonomy, and a reliance on their own expertise to sustain themselves.

[00:03:21]So what I'd like to see is a future in the not too distant future, by the way, where we stop trying to be super famous and have. Massive and impressive audience reach. And we actually truly embrace the ideas like Kevin Kelly's 1000 true fans or Seth Godin's smallest viable audience and try and find a small number of people who react in a big way to what we do and serve them more deeply.

[00:03:49]And how do we get there? I think we need to stop trying to be social media famous and trying to serve people with our craft. So my fear. Is that way too many people are [00:04:00] way too excited about more and more, more bigger, bigger, bigger, get famous in a niche or anything. General. My hope is that we can get to a place where 45 to 50%.

[00:04:08] And that's, I think that's the bar. If you look at all, creators are 45 are about half of them able to earn a comfortable standard of living with significant economic security work autonomy. Using their expertise to sustain themselves. And I think it's going to take a lot of education to get there better tools.

[00:04:27]And most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially building on rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform you actually own like your own website and email list.

[00:04:39]Naga S: [00:04:39] Got it. Let me double click on some of the concepts that you've spoken about here. Right? First one is Kevin Kelly's , a hundred true fans or legions thousand true fans, or what they talk about in terms of how much money are these folks willing to give you so that you are able to pursue your craft.

[00:04:56]Right? So in order for us to be able to get to these thousand of these hundred people, you will at least need to reach like a 10,000 folks or like, you know, 5,000 folks. Right. And they might eventually convert into those smaller number of people who might end up being, who are potentially be able to sustain us financially.

[00:05:14]So if your suggestion is for folks not to be too worried about having a broad reach, or I think what you're really trying to say is that people should not approach like a, have a spray and pray approach, where they say that I'm trying to get everyone is my audience. And you're saying that you really need to have a niche.

[00:05:31]But my question is more fundamental in terms of how do you really build that first initial audience who would be like the top of the funnel for your paying customers later on?

[00:05:41]Jay Acunzo: [00:05:41] Everything I'm about to say is going to sound incredibly hard to do, because everybody wants to see the final result, but I assure you, I don't know any other way to do this other than you get incredibly lucky.

[00:05:51]Lightning strikes and suddenly lots of people know who you are. So I think those stories are mostly myth here. Here's what I encourage people to [00:06:00] do. Stop thinking about the funnel and think about your audience as a series of concentric circles. So kind of like a bullseye in the middle and bigger and bigger circles moving out from the middle.

[00:06:09]When you think of it like a funnel, I think you do think of it kind of the way you just described it, Naga where you need to reach 10,000 people to get a hundred or a thousand to. For example, subscribed to your newsletter. I actually think you need to just put aside the funnel, right? Stop trying to reach a lot of people first and convert a few people in the end of it all.

[00:06:29]And start thinking about these concentric circles, where in the middle there's this circle called super fans. And as you radiate out from super fans, you get closer and closer to total strangers. What most of us try to do when we market, what we do is we go to total, strangers may be passive observers of our work, and we try to basically try to get them to like us quickly.

[00:06:52]And that makes no sense. So whether you think in like human relationship terms or dollars and cents. It's inefficient and ineffective to try and convince total strangers that you're worth subscribing to or paying it's a lot easier and a lot more in line with how humans work to go to five other human beings that, you know, you can serve more deeply and try to build something that they like.

[00:07:14]So I think most of us are in a position where we have some people in our network, social network or otherwise like online network or in the real world where we can reach a very small number of people. I mean, whatever small means to you, one, five, 15, 5,500, it depends on you and give them something that they love and react too strongly.

[00:07:34]And if you can't do that, Then that's the problem. The problem isn't I can't reach more people, but I need to, the problem is you haven't actually built something that people are willing to refer others. So ostensibly, if you reach, I don't know, let's pick a number, a hundred people to listen to your podcast episode.

[00:07:52]You should be pretty well situated to grow the show more easily because those hundred people should be spending [00:08:00] a lot of time with you and telling all their friends. You know, relevant friends, check out that show. I think we assume we do that. We assume that we're actually creating something for super fans that is worth sharing.

[00:08:12]And then we say, well, it's not growing. So the problem must be the marketing. We have to go reach 10,000 people. I don't think that's true. I think actually, when you think about building a real-world community, you think about meeting up for coffee or drinks with two or three people, then two or three more next time than five or six more.

[00:08:30] The next time, then you have an event, then you have a panel. Then you have a huge conference. Like it really is that slow build approach. It's the same online, just because you can reach a lot of people doesn't mean that that's actually an effective way to grow. It actually starts by making something that one or a few people really, truly do love.

[00:08:48]And tell their friends about, and it's a dangerous assumption to make. If you're not growing to assume you've actually done that. So the way it's sum this up is most of the time we don't have a marketing problem, we have a product problem. We have a service problem. We have a depth problem, not a reach problem.

[00:09:04]Naga S: [00:09:04] Got it. I also think that some of this narrative is being carried over from like the startup world or like SAAS businesses in general, that they refer to all of these numbers of like funnels and that that's how they look at the world. However, the mental model that you suggested, which is how actual communities really get built.

[00:09:23] It's the way creator should be looking at it. Like, no, it should be like, they're talking to the first individual 5,000. How many of the people that they can and then see how they can expand that. That's a great insight that you give that. So then the next question I have for your Jay is that now you mentioned that it's not about marketing, it's your product and you've, you've seen a ton of content.

[00:09:46]And there will be some things that set apart great content from everything else that's out there. In global shows, your, you spoke about, we don't really need another podcast, which talks to you [00:10:00] know, famous authors and how they got there.

[00:10:01] But what we need is something. A lot more specific though. Can I just ask you to dive a little bit deeper into what makes a great product, especially now that our attention spans are so low and there's so many things that are finding to make us want to look at

[00:10:16]Jay Acunzo: [00:10:16] Sure. I mean, our attention spans aren't so low because we're bingeing, Netflix shows we're subscribing to newsletters that write essays.

[00:10:23]We're reading books were having conversations with friends and family. I read somewhere and I wish I remember who said this. This is not my quote. We don't have we don't have shorter attention spans. We have shorter interest spans, which means we are going to tolerate things that are not engaging and not personal for less time. So table stakes be relevant. Table stakes, be enjoyable. Differentiating is to feel refreshing that you've done something different and good, not just a random stunt, not a gimmick that feels hollow to grab attention, but something delightful that people didn't expect in a welcome way. Differentiating is to feel personal.

[00:11:02] Like you want the reaction not to be, this is a popular thing, but you want it to be, this is my favorite thing. And favorite is not number one in the category. It's not different because you pulled a stunned. Favorite means somebody's personal and preferred pick for a specific purpose. So when you think about a product, a service content, any experience today, the goal is to make it feel personal to the other person you're trying to serve, or the audience we're trying to serve.

[00:11:28] In other words, the best reaction you can get is they say to you, now this is speaking to my soul. That's what you want. Your brand, the way you position it, the story you just publish, the way you talk about the world and see the world and lead your community. This is speaking to my soul. It is my personal preferred pick for this specific purpose.

[00:11:47] It is my favorite. And so, you know, your favorite restaurant may not be the top rated restaurant. Your favorite shirt may not win any awards for fashion. My favorite basketball team is the New York Knicks. If [00:12:00] you know anything about basketball, you know, the New York Knicks are one of the worst basketball teams.

[00:12:04] So just really think about that objectively. One of the worst things in this set is my favorite thing. So feeling like someone's favorite has nothing to do with how big it is or how academically or objectively awesome it is. It has nothing to do with the things we look at. When we look at our peers, it has everything to do with, are you resonating deeply with somebody on a personal level?

[00:12:26]So backing all the way up to starting your build a product content, a podcast, something else. There's really some set problems you're going to face, which I think we fail to address because we're so focused on the tech and the distribution and the measurement of it all. But the first challenge you're going to face is are you saying something that matters?

[00:12:46]So if it's a podcast, for example, have you actually developed a premise for your show? And a premise is not just the topics you explore. It's not just what you cover. It's also how you explore them. So it's your topics plus your hook? So there's plenty of sales podcasts in the world who talked to experts in sales, but there is only one podcast for salespeople that explore the value of practice in your sales job.

[00:13:13]And that's a show called practice first from a SAAS company called Lessonly. So that's a good example. Lessonly is saying something that matters. They observed their sales audience and they're like, look, you want to be better at sales? Well, I think you need to be better at practicing your craft. So Lessonly sells training software for salespeople, and they know that their customers who value practice close faster, and they're more valuable for their businesses.

[00:13:38]Well, they're also then saying to the world, we need to elevate the role of practice. So we're not going to just interview a bunch of sales executives on this show on practice. First, we're going to learn how world-class practices do that to then try to translate it to our world in sales. So they'll talk to Olympians, they'll talk to Somalis.

[00:13:58]They will talk to coaches. [00:14:00] And to me that is. That's IP that's intellectual property. That is defensible because when you say that to the world, like, actually this is something that matters to us and to the community, someone is saying, man, that is speaking to my soul. I'm with you, I'm on the journey to understand practice and how to practice better as a sales individual.

[00:14:20]And someone else is saying, yes, I'm in sales, but I don't believe that practice is that important. Well, that's fine. This is not a show for you. That's okay. Also, if you, if you tried our product, you would dislike our product too. So it's that level of specificity and saying something that truly matters of combining your topics.

[00:14:38] In other words, what you explore with your hook, that unique angle into the topics, your point of view, your quest, that you're bringing people on. Those are the things that combined to say something that matters. And those are the starting points for building in your words, a great product.

[00:14:53]Naga S: [00:14:53] So now we've spoken about the number of people that you need for your, like a minimum viable audience you've spoken about. How do you make a great product once content creator has achieved both of these things? What do you think is the next best way to achieve? Monetization. And what I mean by monetization is that the audience typically is expecting to either be entertained or to learn something new or to be taken on a journey or be disconnected from reality, so to speak because they just want to relax and unwind when, when they're consuming content apart from these three broad value teams, what are some of the other Aspects that creators can keep in mind so that they can move towards monetization in a quicker and more thoughtful manner.

[00:15:43]Jay Acunzo: [00:15:43] I can't answer that question because it's too general. Because there's a million, everything at our disposal today, our tools. Right. So like, could you do a course? Sure. Could you run ads? Sure. Could you sell a book? Absolutely. You know, could you create a membership group? Absolutely. These are all tools.

[00:15:58]And so [00:16:00] rather than have me give a general answer, I would encourage people to go and talk to their audience and understand what is. Still bugging them. What problem is left under addressed or what thing is under explored that they'd like to understand better? So we have all these tools at our disposal and I'm kind of struck by today.

[00:16:20] We're all looking for that, answer, that silver bullet, you know, the savior tactic, you should do this. Well that's general advice and I don't know the variables of your specific situation. So just ignore what I say and go talk to your audience. You know, a good example of this is, this podcast called three clips, which is where podcasts join us and take us inside their best work.

[00:16:41]And we do so by playing three different clips and breaking them down together. So I talked to the audience of three clips all the time on social media. I do one-on-one video calls through my newsletter. And one of the things I've recognized is this audience desperately wants to create really awesome shows, but there's this disassociation.

[00:17:02] They feel between their heroes and them, whether they admire great podcasts, but they're like, Oh, I could never do anything that big. Well, it's like, okay. But if you're like, listen to the show, these people aren't describing anything big or stunt, like they're describing these tiny choices they made all the time that combined to making a great show.

[00:17:20]So you can put process to that. Well, what is the process I was, you know, okay, I'll go write some essays about what I'm learning from the show. I'll send some tweets, I'll send some newsletter, additions, all about the things I'm learning and thinking about as a result of this show. And now I'm looking for, you know, am I getting a strong reaction from the audience?

[00:17:38]Okay, the answer is yes. Great. Well, how do I then go a level deeper with these ideas? Let me take one specific thing. And in this case, I took the premise because that is such an important and overlooked thing. How do you develop a premise for your podcast? That's what prompts subscription. That's what drives the sharing of your show?

[00:17:55] It's what helps you make choices inside your show? The premise development is [00:18:00] crucial, but most people don't think of the premise. They think of growth. They think of growing the show. How do I know that? Because I talked to these people and when I bring up premise development, it's like their eyes glaze over and they have no idea what I'm talking about.

[00:18:12] Then I explain it, you know, then I explain it, then they get it. So when I talk about growth, they lean in, when I talk about premise development, they lean back. So I have to put the two together. So you want to grow your show. Great. What makes a growable show? Well, it starts with the premise. So then I developed a course.

[00:18:29]To help people grow their shows by developing a better premise called it Growable shows. So all those decisions from the content I'm creating, you know, that's away from the show to pressure test my ideas to the name itself growable shows because I could have called it premise development. It all comes from me talking to the audience.

[00:18:47] So as a creator today, it can be overwhelming because you have myriad tools and tons of different products that you could create for your audience. There's no way you can pick that out. In theory, you have to just pursue endless curiosity and pursue little threads that your audience surfaces to you. And for me, the best way to do that is actually not to create podcast episodes it's to write is to use writing as a way to explore.

[00:19:11]I might learn something through the podcast, but then I'm like, great. I'm going to write a ton about this stuff. I'll write stuff on Twitter. I'll write stuff in my blog. I'll write stuff on my newsletter. I'll write and write and write until I understand these things better. And have process and have technique I can teach.

[00:19:25] And I'm also getting a feedback loop for my audience to understand if they're, if they're picking up what I'm putting down. So I know that's a long answer, but I don't think there is a simple answer. I think it is go talk to your audience, but be process-driven about it.

[00:19:36]Naga S: [00:19:36] Yup. I love the fact that you're, you're not only engaging with your audience and in one form.

[00:19:42] Right? And, and even as part of the clips, you also have like specific episodes that are just dedicated to input your conversation with the listeners and the kind of stuff that you hear back from them.

[00:19:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:19:52] That's another great example of talking to the audience that I sort of discovered by accident. It's like I do.

[00:19:58]A listener mailbag episode, [00:20:00] once in awhile, where mostly on Twitter, I ask if people have questions about creating shows and we'll do five to seven questions in an episode that I'll answer. So we don't have a guest. It's not the usual production. It's just Q and a, and I'm answering questions I got on Twitter.

[00:20:14]And what I realized is everybody's questions, or a lot of questions tend to focus on things that they think they need to know. But I want to show them actually, what you really need to know is over here. And I can't just say that I have to start with the problems that they think they have and walk them every step of the way to the problem that I know they have.

[00:20:36]Which is something I learned as a public speaker, because when you give a keynote speech, unlike a breakout speech or talk, you're giving like a big idea how to think talk. And so the keynote, you can't just get up there and be like, everybody's doing it wrong. Think about it this way. Instead you have to say, so we all want to get over there.

[00:20:54]Right. And here's how we're going about it today. Okay. We're in agreement. Okay. Well, here's the problems with the status quo with our current approach. And people go, huh? Hadn't thought about it or, Oh my goodness. Yep. You get me. Those are the problems I deal with all the time. And then you can say, okay, well consider this different thing here.

[00:21:13] Let me give you a story that shows what it looks like. Let me break it down into a framework that we can use with some lessons and some examples, you know, and let's go deeper if you want away from the speech. Let's talk after subscribe to my newsletter, take a course, et cetera. So this idea of being a keynote speaker kind of taught me that our jobs as creators is not the pander to existing market demand. It's actually to look at what people think they need and actually tell them what they really need. You know, the, the classic idea of Henry Ford talking about his customers. Like if I asked my customers what they wanted, they would've said faster horses.

[00:21:46]So actually we're all in the business of understanding the pain, understanding the problems, understanding what is broken about the status quo and people's current processes. But then we can't just propose a radically new and different solution or category. We have to [00:22:00] start with where they're at and move them every step of the way towards something better.

[00:22:03]And for my money, one of the best ways to do that today is to start a podcast. So that's why I love it because a podcast is like a journey between the status quo or your current understanding. And something better in the distance. So it kind of mirrors a keynote speech stretched out over a much longer period of time, but either way as a creative person, you are in the business of making change and helping people do something better or differently.

[00:22:26] Not just saying everybody's asking for this. So I'll write a bunch of stuff that addresses that you're in the business of change.

[00:22:32]Naga S: [00:22:32] You spoke about how every creator's journey to monetization. Is different. And you also said that, , that there are different things that they might not know that they want, but it's up to us to find out what they really need and help them bridge the gap.

[00:22:47]One of the ways to bridge the gap also is to see what someone else is doing in your blog posts. You've spoken about extraction. It's spoken about how do you observe and document like. The underlying framework of a particular episode. I think I wrote about it in reference to a TV show.

[00:23:04]How can somebody apply that in terms of borrowing, so to speak best practices from other creators so that they're able to apply it for their content?

[00:23:15] Jay Acunzo: [00:23:15] It's a great question. I rejected the idea early in my life that creativity. And great creative projects have a format, have a structure, have a repeatable process.

[00:23:25]But if you look at everything from scientific studies about creativity, to just real-world examples and advice from people, constraints actually yield better creativity. I think we, we believe the opposite. We believe we want creative freedom, but I think that's only because we've had bad constraints or constraints we disagree with or didn't know were there.

[00:23:44] With teammates, employers, ourselves, but putting positive or proactive constraints on your work actually breeds better creativity. And one amazing type of constraint to put on your work is the format of whatever it is you're creating. So for me, those are [00:24:00] shows. So I have a, I have two podcasts. I've mentioned three clips.

[00:24:03]The other one I have is a show called unthinkable, which three clips has kind of a segmented interview on thinkable as a narrative style show. So to heavier production, lots of story and voiceover and music and sound design, and the audience gets one end to end episode. Every time it feels like one coherent story.

[00:24:20]But what I know is happening underneath an episode, which then makes me better to create it is I know we have six or seven blocks of content with the same purpose. A block is for this B block is for that. And they have different runtimes. And we have to fill those blocks with content. So we're going to go and research.

[00:24:36] We're going to go interview. We're going to craft it and in editing. And I got that idea from TV because in TV you have both visible and invisible what they call rundowns. So visible rundown is like a news program often has that you see the ticker of what subjects they're covering and when a sit-com or a story style show, anything where you don't know the format, it's not told to you.

[00:25:00] That's an invisible rundown. And so my favorite storyteller is Anthony Bordain and his show parts unknown on CNN before, you know, he tragically died and I took a notebook early in my time, creating unthinkable. And I sat down with that show and I just tried to document what is it that makes his show so magical?

[00:25:18] Like what's the format, even if him and his production team didn't have it in their heads. There's something going on in repeatable fashion here. And if I could extract the rundown. I can modify it and use it for my show. So I'm not trying to imitate Bordain. I'm just trying to have a flow that feels similar to his.

[00:25:36]So my voice is different, but the structure is the same. And you can do that with anything you admire take a notebook, see if you can figure out what your favorite creators are doing underneath their content. What's the structure of a given story of your favorite newsletter or book. You know, how do they actually format that video that you love?

[00:25:54]And chances are, you can come up with something that approximates their plan, or maybe they didn't have a plan, but you have [00:26:00] a structure anyway. So I call that exercise and extraction and it can really radically transform your creativity. You know, first of all, it gives you a repeatable process. So you don't burn out every time.

[00:26:11] Like every episode of unthinkable early on for me, felt like I was just kind of proceeding on gut feel alone and I would burn out a lot. Well, now you have a repeatable process. I know what I need to get in my research in my interviews with people in post, I have a plan. The second thing that happens is the audience gets a better final result because you have a plan to get them to the end of the thing, you know, in my case, in episode.

[00:26:33]So I have like a structure to it. Not just because it's fun or sounds right, but because lineup, all these sections, you have one great coherent experience that people don't want to leave. So it benefits your production, it benefits your audience sticking around, and it also benefits the longevity or show because you can look at that rundown and re-invent with purpose.

[00:26:52]Instead of being like, I have all these ideas for new types of episodes or additions. If my newsletter or my blog, you can say, well, this is the structure, you know, in my case of an episode, and every time we hit B block, it seems to fall apart. So let me change it. Or actually, I think we could try to experiment with a playful type of segment at the end, or maybe that becomes a mini series or a whole new show after we do it five or six times inside an existing episode.

[00:27:17]So you get to reinvent with purpose. So I think having structure is transformative, but we fight it too much as creative people. And I think that's a huge missed opportunity.

[00:27:25]Naga S: [00:27:25] The first time that I really, , had my brush with structure was when I was studying to get into business school. And I was reading about , reading comprehension, how do you break down a passage? It was just a revelation for me to realize that even in my favorite Netflix show, there is a specific story arc.

[00:27:42]The protagonist is going through certain things and it always ends. With a clincher and that sort of keeps you coming back for more and more and more. And this, like you said, like let's structure everywhere, but it's just that we're not really thinking about it or looking for it or looking for inspiration from those places.

[00:27:58]Jay Acunzo: [00:27:58] Yeah. Like there's, there [00:28:00] are some famous story structures, you know Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is a big one. There's a modified version of that that's been used in pop culture and entertainment from. Dan Harmon, who's the showrunner behind shows like community and Rick and Morty. He uses something called the story circle.

[00:28:15] You can just pull up Google images and search for hero's journey or Dan Harmon story circle. And you'll find that it just makes sense, like these visuals explain story. I mean, even tiny little heuristics, like there's, there's a technique called the open loop. So here's an example of an open loop. So Naga this morning I went downstairs to my kitchen and my notebook was sitting on the counter and I read the first page of my notebook, which had five words that inspired me.

[00:28:43] And I read them every morning. Okay. Nothing happened in that story like this, literally a story about nothing. I went to the kitchen, I looked at my notebook. I read five words that inspire me, but the question on your mind immediately, Is

[00:28:55] Naga S: [00:28:55] what are those five words?

[00:28:56] Jay Acunzo: [00:28:56] Exactly. And so you're like that story is about nothing, but please continue.

[00:29:01]And so open loops are just, you start a sequence of events and you end them later, you open questions or raise intrigue and you resolve them later. Open loops, even the word, but is a form of open loops. And that's what I thought. But then Naga called me. Who's Naga. Why he call you? How did it change your perception of what you thought the word, but is like a form of a tiny little open loop.

[00:29:25] It's a storytelling device. Open loops can span years, like game of Thrones who will sit on the throne. That's an open loop that the name itself opened for the audience. It raised intrigue. Before you even saw the show. If you just heard the name during the promotion for season one, now there's already an open loop and that lasted 10 years.

[00:29:43]So big and small, you have this technique called the open loop and we don't know how to wield it as creators. So either we don't use intrigue or don't create questions. And so our experiences are flat or we use it in a very. Abusive way. We, you know, we re we [00:30:00] abused the responsibility inherent and being a communicator.

[00:30:03] And we do things like clickbait headlines, which is like a crude form of an open loop. And I think if you learn how to tactfully use tension, that's what creates great stories. And that is where these story structures come in, because it's like, okay, what details happened before the tension? Where do I introduce the tension?

[00:30:21] Where do I relieve the tension? And sometimes it's as simple as one, two, three, sometimes it's a little bit more nuanced and like a wave that, you know, rises and falls and story structure or ways for you to focus that. But without the structure and without even knowing these open loops exist, we're just winging it and good for us for doing that because a lot of people won't even try that.

[00:30:42]But if we want to have a sustainable thriving career, And we want to be better at this craft. I think we're far better learning about what actually goes on in the theory of it all to the structure, the format. How do we make things consistently and make things consistently better every single time?

[00:30:57]Naga S: [00:30:57] Absolutely. I think that's a phenomenal note for us to wrap up this conversation, Jay, who we've spoken about of extraction and spoken about structure, spoken about honing a craft and spoken about. The product or the premise marketing the right way. So can you bottom line it for us?

[00:31:15]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:15] Don't Mark it more matter more.

[00:31:17]If you just focus on that, you'll be set up for success. It's really hard to do because it's easy to market more. It's really hard to matter more, but I think if we focus on the wrong things, eventually we find out it's actually a lot easier to focus on mattering to people than marketing to people.

[00:31:33]Naga S: [00:31:33] Fantastic. Can people reach out to you? What's the best way for them to reach out,

[00:31:38]to reach out Twitter? You know, my show is three clips. That's about podcasting. And then my other show is about creativity at work, which is unthinkable.

[00:31:45]Fantastic. I'll make sure that I include the links to your shows as well as your Twitter handle in the show notes.

[00:31:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:52] Thanks Naga.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

2021年02月26日

Creator Passive Income with Affiliate Marketing

Is there really such a thing called passive income? Is it accessible to creators? Dive into the nuances of the world of Affiliate marketing with an affiliate marketing veteran who's in the business for a decade and now derives all of this creator income from affiliate marketing.

Reach out to Dilip and Check out his content -

Affiliate Marketing Blog – https://dkspeaks.com

Podcast about Podcasting – https://thepodcastinguniversity.com

Tastes of India Podcast - https://thetastesofindia.com/

Instagram – https://instagram.com/dkspeaks

Facebook – https://facebook.com/dkspeaks

Twitter – https://twitter.com/dkspeaks

Pinterest – https://pinterest.com/dkspeaks

Reach out to Naga –

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

email - naagasubramanya@gmail.com

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

More about EpLog Media -

You can follow us and leave us feedback on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @eplogmedia,

For advertising/partnerships send you can send us an email at bonjour@eplog.media.

If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organisation.

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

Transcript

[00:00:00]R Dilip Kumar: [00:00:00] Promoting products on my niche websites, creating niche websites that are solely focused on affiliate marketing.

[00:00:06] When I look at my podcasting journey and what my goals for podcasting was, I was never looking at monetizing the taste of India podcast from the perspective that most podcasters look at it , sponsorships andmaybe a merchandise or, ads.

[00:00:21] So I wasn't looking at it from that perspective. My sole objective was to drive all of that traffic to my blog and then monetize my blog

[00:00:30]But once you've done it, if you're able to drive traffic to it, , it's income that stays there, that's passive. So people just come visit those posts, click on those links, buy and you'll get paid a commission.

[00:00:42] Naga S: [00:00:42] Hi, Dilip. Hello and welcome to the passion people podcast.

[00:00:45]R Dilip Kumar: [00:00:45] Thanks for having me here. I was looking for forward to this conversation for some time,

[00:00:48]Naga S: [00:00:48] can you tell us your story I know you run an affiliate marketing blog an affiliate marketing podcast, and you're also a great content creator in your own right with both you and your wife, having such famous websites and podcasts.

[00:01:01]R Dilip Kumar: [00:01:01] Thanks. I have been an affiliate marketers since 2003. Okay. So is when I first learned about affiliate marketing it wasn't purely affiliate marketing. I started off with understanding what blogging was, and that was when, blogging was slowly taking off.

[00:01:18]I went into affiliate marketing because my objective of getting into blogging was to use the expertise or the knowledge that I had and make money. And just to give you a context, , 2002, 2003 was a time when. People who are making a lot of money using Google AdSense on their blogs and these blogs weren't really, extremely good content.

[00:01:40] It was just some content that they were putting out there. They were putting some Google AdSense in there and they were kind of making money. So that is where I actually started. And Google AdSense, wasn't really a very reliable option for me. I diversified into learning, understanding what affiliate marketing is, [00:02:00] and that's how I got into affiliate marketing in 2003 is when I first put together my affiliate marketing website.

[00:02:07] But. Slowly and gradually I kind of graduated into a little more advanced methods in affiliate marketing, building, very niche specific sites that is oriented towards affiliate marketing. And that's what I've continued to do over the last, I think 14, 15 years

[00:02:25] , I came into podcasting first. The first podcast that I listened to was somewhere around 2005, 2006, there was this guy, Yarrow Starack it was Yarrow from who's , small course that I happened to learn what blogging is and what affiliate marketing is all about.

[00:02:41] So Yarrow had a podcast somewhere in 2005 and it was something very new, not a lot of podcasts. So that's whereI first encountered a podcast. I started my podcast on affiliate marketing for my primary blog Dkspeaks.com somewhere around 2010, 2011. Did it for almost about two years, but then, I was getting pulled into multiple directions because I wanted to focus my energy on something that I was doing for a long time.

[00:03:12] And I felt that somehow podcasting was taking a little too much time of mine. One of the reason was that, , my wife started her blog that is thetastesofindia.com .

[00:03:21] That was in 2008 when she started. And there was a lot of energy that we were putting in to promoting that blog, building the audience. We had a lot of issues in terms of some hosting, going down a lot of content going down. So. I was getting involved in a lot of these things that is where I took a break from podcasting on DK, speaks.com and then continued with affiliate marketing for a while until 2015.

[00:03:49]When , once again we felt that podcasting could be a good addition to what we were doing on the taste of India. And that is [00:04:00] where we started off podcasting again in 2015, September was when the first episode of the taste of India podcast came out. Since then we've consistently been releasing shows on the taste of India podcast.

[00:04:12] And it's been about an year that I started the podcasting university.com and the podcast there. So it's a year. Because of the COVID impact, I had to take a little break there, but then these other two podcast projects that I'm running right now, but primarily I am into affiliate marketing.

[00:04:30]Promoting products on my niche websites, creating niche websites that are solely focused on affiliate marketing.

[00:04:36]Naga S: [00:04:36] I understand. Let's dive right into the meat of the matter, ? So how much of your total income is delayed from affiliate marketing currently in a percentage, if I can ask you

[00:04:47] R Dilip Kumar: [00:04:47] It is almost a hundred percent. Once again, go back to how we started podcasts for the taste of India. I, to talk about the taste of India right now. So, when we started podcast that is suffering the podcast, it was not to start a podcast.

[00:05:02] It was to look at an alternate channel. To promote our existing blog@thetasteofindia.com. So there was another audience. Who is focused on audio. And we felt that if we could engage with that audience who were focused on audio, we can bring them back to our websites and in fact, the blog as well.

[00:05:25] That is how we started with the taste of India podcast. So. When I look at my podcasting journey and what my goals for podcasting was, I was never looking at monetizing the taste of India podcast from the perspective that most podcasters look at it , sponsorships and maybe a merchandise or, ads.

[00:05:44] So I wasn't looking at it from that perspective. My sole objective was to drive all of that traffic to my blog and then monetize my blog. So that's what we followed since the tastesofindia.com as a podcast started, and [00:06:00] we've mostly driving traffic back to our blog itself and our earning is primarily from affiliate marketing that we're doing on the blog.

[00:06:06]So we've even stopped. Google ads on the taste of India right now, because there was feedback that we got from people saying that the ads are extremely intrusive, so we stopped and that wasn't a lot that we were earning from those Google ads as well.

[00:06:21] So we are solely focused on affiliate marketing right now. And all income that we are earning, all of it almost a hundred percent is coming from affiliate marketing.

[00:06:29]Naga S: [00:06:29] You guys all have your a hundred percent of your monthly income does through affiliate marketing. Okay. So let's take a few steps back. Can you explain what is affiliate marketing and how is it different from the regular marketing and why should creators be interested to know about affiliate marketing?

[00:06:46] R Dilip Kumar: [00:06:46] Affiliate marketing is basically, you're promoting somebody's product, there is , a manufacturer or a service provider who already have a product, and you are promoting that product to your audience in return for a commission that they are going to pay you

[00:07:03] and affiliate marketing is a small pie from the overall revenue that these e-commerce players are making, why is it that they're doing it because. No, it's a very easy advertising, medium for e-commerce companies. Now I'll take an example of Amazon, which is what we use mostly on the taste of India.

[00:07:22]Now, Amazon has their own affiliate marketing program. Similarly in India, Flipkart has their own affiliate program and for Amazon and Flipkart, while they might be paying out about maybe four to 8% off the total value of a sale. That budget, the advertising budget for affiliate marketing, for the affiliates that they might be setting aside is absolutely zero because there is nothing that they need to do.

[00:07:46] It is affiliates who are interested in promoting that product, who don't go there, pick those links, promote those products, drive traffic to their products and facilitate the sale. So in return for that, if they are paying about four to [00:08:00] 8% off the sale that they are making, it's worth it for them because they're saving a lot of money that they would otherwise have spent on advertising.

[00:08:08]So for e-commerce players, this is a very good medium. And just to give you a context, I kind of get into details of advertise affiliate marketing when I write my posts. So you might be surprised to see that the msn.com website that also has a lot of products that they promote.

[00:08:27] And they always have a note below that product saying that we are, these links are affiliate links and we might earn from a sale that happens through this link. I don't know why msn.com would have affiliate links on their website, but it shows that there, isn't a lot of effort that you need to put in there that absolutely is there when you're starting off, when you're building it.

[00:08:50] But once you've done it, if you're able to drive traffic to it, , it's income that stays there, that's passive. So people just come visit those posts, click on those links, buy and you'll get paid a commission.

[00:09:01] That's basically what affiliate marketing is.

[00:09:04]Naga S: [00:09:04] I'm sure there's a little bit more nuance to it. Is it as simple as you're making it out to be.

[00:09:10]R Dilip Kumar: [00:09:10] I take an example of the taste of it, India right now. We want to help people start their niche, blogs and run those blogs on affiliate marketing. So that's something that we are doing there.

[00:09:19]Now, if you go to taste of india.com. On every post that we put out, you will find that there are, Amazon products that we refer now, for example, if there is a recipe that we are making and the primary two ingredients in that recipe for simplicity, let me say that it's organic all-purpose flour.

[00:09:38] Okay. Organic whole wheat atta that link is also linked using an Amazon affiliate and. On top of that, what we're also doing is if you go to the tastesofindia.com, you will find, there are pages that are dedicated to reviews that we write about specific products. And those products are Amazon products that we are promoting.

[00:09:59]Each of [00:10:00] those posts, if I get about let me say about thousand 2,500 page views in a day. People who are going there, the click-through rate, even in a very poor situation, even if it is at about eight to 10%, that's a good number of people clicking on that link, going to the Amazon website.

[00:10:17]Now, one thing that you might want to note here is that if they click on that link, which for example is a whole wheat atta that link, they go to Amazon, but they're not buying whole wheat data. Instead they're buying something else. I get credited for that sale as well. So it isn't just that one product that I'm promoting, which is going to pay me, but anything that they buy once they click through from that link is a sale that has been generated from my link.

[00:10:44]And I get paid for it. So to your question, is there nuances to it? To starting off with affiliate marketing, the basic simple step is that you have content, you have valuable content. And in between those content, you're providing contextual links to products that you want to promote as an affiliate.

[00:11:04]That is all that is there to affiliate marketing, the second aspect is generating traffic. That is where the larger effort is you need to generate traffic to those posts or those blogs in order to generate those commissions.

[00:11:18] So to your questions starting off is simple. But to build that, to generate that traffic, like, in podcasting, the amount of effort that we put into promote our shows, it is pretty much the same there as well. You need to put in a lot of effort to promote, to build that audience.

[00:11:35] And only then that the returns come.

[00:11:38]Naga S: [00:11:38] The difficult part is though content and then making sure that the audience comes in now after the, after the audience has come in. Is it as simple as it's going to like the amazon.com and their affiliate page and the signing up, or are there any other gotchas where they'll tell you that, , if you don't make a sale in three months, we'll deal with your account and stuff like that.

[00:11:59] What are some [00:12:00] of the things that people should be aware of when they're signing up for this?

[00:12:04]R Dilip Kumar: [00:12:04] There isn't anything like that. , once you join an affiliate program. Like for example, I am an affiliate marketer. I joined their affiliate program. Amazon associates program. They wouldn't delist me. Even if I don't make a single sale for the next one year,

[00:12:18] it's entirely my choice when I want to promote it. When I want to drive traffic, when I want to make money, because making money is what my objective is to make money out of those links. So why wouldn't I want to promote it, but Amazon doesn't have to do anything with it. They'll just say, okay, if you don't want to do it, it's fine.

[00:12:32] But they will keep that account active. There is nothing like that. And that's not just with Amazon with any affiliate program. They don't delist you, and there are a couple of , exclusions to it. I'll come to that, but otherwise in 95% of the affiliate programs, there isn't any conditions that you need to make money.

[00:12:53]But if you're consistently putting in that effort, you will generate a sale now when it comes to Amazon this might be a little technical for people, but then when it comes to Amazon, the only thing is that Amazon provides an API access, which basically helps you to automatically pull in the products on their website, on the Amazon website and showcase that on your blog.

[00:13:15] Or your website. So if you don't generate a sale for an X amount of period, I think it's about 90 days or something, then that API access is something that you won't get, but you can still promote Amazon products. The only thing is that you need to manually copy that link and use that in your post. So that's.

[00:13:31] With Amazon, but there are a couple of affiliate networks. Like for example, there is a network called commissionjunction.com, which we've been using for quite some time. Their website is cj.com. Now on cj.com. If you don't generate a sale for like 120 days, then your account becomes a dormant account.

[00:13:48] You need to, once again, go and reactivate it. And only then you will be able to promote the products. So there are very few networks, , I wouldn't even say 5% of the world networks, but very few networks who actually put that [00:14:00] condition in there. But otherwise 95, 98% of the networks, there isn't any such condition.

[00:14:05] You can join them, promote products as per your convenience. And that's it.

[00:14:10]Naga S: [00:14:10] The reason I was asking was because I was dabbling with affiliate marketing myself, and I was trying to get some sales for Amazon products and Amazon, after a couple of months, send me a notice saying that we're delisting your affiliate account because you're not you have not made a sale or anything like that.

[00:14:26] So I guess the rules are updated, I guess this was two, three years back.

[00:14:30]R Dilip Kumar: [00:14:30] right. So , that isn't there because I've been using Amazon for quite some time, now it doesn't there, but then the API access they'll revoke, they'll revoke the API access. You won't get that, but your account won't be delisted. You can still promote the products.

[00:14:43]Naga S: [00:14:43] At the end of the day, this comes back to Who is the the audience for whom you are creating content. Subsequently what are the kind of products that your audience will be interested to buy.

[00:14:56]R Dilip Kumar: [00:14:56] Correct. So it has to be contextual because otherwise, , you might just be pushing some products that are absolutely irrelevant to your audience and you can absolutely do that. But then the point there is that conversions might not be what you are expecting, so it might just not work. So what does advisable list to push contextual products, which are, relevant to your audience?

[00:15:18]Naga S: [00:15:18] Absolutely. And in order to find and push the contextual products, one needs to make sure that the show or the content that is being created as a very niche audience. Like the way you were talking earlier, right. About creating websites for niche audiences, because what it is that those specific people are coming for.

[00:15:36] And especially in the context of content creators, it comes down to the premise. So what's the premise of your show, your podcast, your video, whatever it is. So that the relative products that linked to your premise can be showcased identified, and then the affiliate links for the same can be shown..

[00:15:54]R Dilip Kumar: [00:15:54] that's right. All kinds of content, because what I feel is that there isn't any content [00:16:00] which might not have a product associated with it, I'll give you an example.

[00:16:03] There are books on Amazon that I usually promote. If I read a book. I go ahead and promote that on my blog or my social media on my emails, I've put an influencer page together on Amazon, where I have listed all of the books that I liked. I recommend now these links have something that I keep sharing with the website, visitors, with the audience through my emails.

[00:16:25] Now, these books also generate income for me because that, again, there is, a percentage that I I earned when people can click on those links and buy those books. So then as in the number of products that are available, that you can promote to your audience, and I don't think there is any niche that doesn't have any, any product or service associated with it.

[00:16:45] It is about you. Going into that depth and understanding what is it that you might want to promote to your audience, but you will definitely find something that you can promote

[00:16:57]Naga S: [00:16:57] Apart from Amazon, what are the other companies, or how do they approach a particular organization asking them about their affiliate program?

[00:17:05] Is it typically available on their website? Do you go, do you need to go through customer care? How, how does that typically work?

[00:17:10]R Dilip Kumar: [00:17:10] It's usually available on their website. So for example, if there is a product that you like now in my case, let me take the example of the podcasting university. Now that's typically targeting people who are interested in podcasts. Now there could be podcasts courses that are available.

[00:17:27] Now, there could be microphones that are available, pop filters. There could be a boom arm that is available. So now. If it is not Amazon, if it's a different product, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page and 90% of these. Products will have in, in their footer, they'll have a link to the affiliate program.

[00:17:44] They will have an affiliate program. Now, assuming that there isn't an affiliate program, a simple thing that you can do is pick that product, go to Google, enter that product's name and add affiliate program next to it and do a quick search, you will find if there is an affiliate [00:18:00] program for that product, you'll be able to find that on Google.

[00:18:02]Now that is a second way of doing it. A third way is to join some of these networks. Now, like the one that I said, cj.com is basically an affiliate network that has a ton of affiliate products, starting from everything, insurance, car insurance, home loans, personal loans. And, , typically as in any kind of finance products services, they have a ton of different products you can pick.

[00:18:26] What is it that you want to promote? You can reach out to them. There is an approval mechanism where they there is a short intro that you need to provide them as to how is it that you're planning to promote their product and all of those things. And if they find that it is something that they feel is right, then we'll approve you and you can promote those products.

[00:18:42] Now cj.com has an approval format. There are some other products, some are some other networks which do not have any approval system. So all that you need to do is just go and apply for the Affiliate program. They'll approve you and then you can promote it. So you'll be able to find the affiliate programs for most of these products and services, because today, like what I said , affiliate marketing is the easiest advertising.

[00:19:07] System that is available to any product or service creator. I'm a huge fan of PatFlynn now, if you go to his website, he's put together a lot of those courses and all of those courses have affiliate programs.

[00:19:16]You can join those affiliate programs and promote. So, , you will find an affiliate program. If for some reason, a product or service doesn't have an affiliate program. There is a similar service or product that might be available that has an affiliate program, which you can always promote.

[00:19:31]Naga S: [00:19:31] You spoke about Pat Flynn, right. And how his courses have affiliate program links and et cetera. Now, if I'm a content creator based out of India, does it make sense for me to reach out , to affiliate programs that are based outside of India as well? Are they open to making payments for the cross border individuals or does it make more sense to restrict myself to organizations within India as a country that I am resident.

[00:19:55] And so that I'm able to minimize any of these logistical foreign [00:20:00] exchange related matters.

[00:20:00]R Dilip Kumar: [00:20:00] I wouldn't recommend that Naga because the sole reason why we are into this digital world is so that we can cross boundaries, reach audience that is beyond the boundary of the region. Or the area that we are located in. And if you're trying to limit yourself within that boundary, then the entire concept of the digital marketing fails.

[00:20:19] I wouldn't advise it. And I 'll take my own example. There are a lot of products and services that I consume and most of those products and services are all from creators that are based out outside of India. It's not based within India. So. From within India as an Indian, if I am consuming those products and services, I don't see why , I wouldn't be able to find a market for those products and services within India.

[00:20:45] If I'm promoting that as an affiliate program. There is no real logistical roadblocks there because it's. All about getting approved for that affiliate program, getting your links, promoting it contextually on your blog or your website. So from your audience's perspective, all that they are doing is clicking on that link.

[00:21:06]They are taken to that product page. They go through that sales page. See if that product is something that they might want to invest in, or they might want to buy, they click buy. Now, go ahead, buy it. If they bite you on a commission, if they don't. That's it. So there is nothing in terms of logistical roadblock, and I wouldn't advise that you should limit yourself to within India until, and unless you are so focused into a niche that or a product or service that you think only Indians might be using and nobody outside might be using.

[00:21:40] So I don't personally recommend doing that , the wider it is the better it will be for you from a overall monetization perspective.

[00:21:49]Naga S: [00:21:49] You don't see a challenge with, to seeing look for an extent and stuff like that. Especially in countries like India.

[00:21:54]R Dilip Kumar: [00:21:54] This is a question that , I was asked, there was a mentorship that I was doing for [00:22:00] a couple of these folks on affiliate marketing. And there was this question that they are saying that what if they don't pay me ? All of these systems that have been put in place, for example, if it is Amazon.

[00:22:10], when I'm talking about Amazon it is Amazon India because Amazon and Amazon, you a United States will have two different kind of customer base because us wouldn't ship to India. So when you're promoting Amazon India products, it is for the Indian audience. That's something that I just wanted to kind of clarify .

[00:22:27]Most of these affiliate programs there is a robust system that is put in there where. Oh, the creator or the product manufacturer or the person who's, who's put together that service cannot kind of refuse to pay you because that, sale that they generate when that sale is generated, that is an X percentage, which is basically the affiliate commission that X percentage is kind of retained by the network.

[00:22:53] And then they pay it over to you. So it's just that there might be conditions. For example, some affiliate networks would say that until, and unless you've reached a hundred dollars, they wouldn't pay you. There are some networks that would say, okay, the payment will happen once in 30 days. But those are already terms that are just common with most affiliate networks.

[00:23:10] So from a payment not happening, it's all a robust system that is there in place just that you shouldn't fall for something that is an obvious scam or, , a product that doesn't have credibility. That's the only thing that you need to avoid. But otherwise that is, there is no such issues.

[00:23:25]Naga S: [00:23:25] That's good to know. The point on the credibility also is a really good one because it also reflects adversely on our audience and the content that we make. If we are recommending products that are inferior quality, or just because someone is giving us a higher affiliate commission. You don't want to lose that trust or Goodwill that the audience's placing in you and they're consuming content, or even when they're purchasing stuff off of our affiliate links.

[00:23:48]R Dilip Kumar: [00:23:48] On that piece, something that I do right now as in there is a lot that has changed in my overall business methodology. So something that I do right now is that if there is a [00:24:00] product that I promote, I ensure that I'm trying it out or I'm using it. So if you go to Amazon most of the products that you will find, there is something that I have in some way been related to now there could be some , products, like, for example, if it's a large appliance let me say, maybe I'm recommending a refrigerator or I'm recommending maybe , a microwave oven to my audience. Then in that case, I would obviously recommend the oven that I'm using . I would put forward, all of those advantages and disadvantages of that oven at the same time, I would recommend some of those competitor ovens as well, which I would have researched before I went ahead and made that purchase. So I wouldn't just go and recommend something that I have absolutely no clue about. Because that is where, , your entire credibility can take a hit. So anything as in like what I said, , the books that I recommend is something that I have read. If I haven't read it, I wouldn't recommend it. The products that I am recommending, for example, on the taste of india.com, there is a page where we've put together how to start a food blog and make money with it.

[00:25:08] Now that page has some of these products. All of it is something that we've used. . So we will recommend products and services that we try out , we are at a better position to pitch that product to my audience.

[00:25:21] And it also ensures that the credibility is maintained.

[00:25:24]Naga S: [00:25:24] That's a good point in terms of all of the products that you had researched, but didn't really end up buying. That's a good way of expanding the reach to products that you have not tried, but have come close to trying.

[00:25:36] So Dilip as we reach the end of the episode, bottom line it for me.

[00:25:41]R Dilip Kumar: [00:25:41] We got reconnected through podcasts, so something that I find. Today. And this is because, , the, on the podcasting university, I spent a lot of time researching on the podcasting industry, what is happening.

[00:25:54] Something that I really found is that there is a lot that we are leaving on the table in terms of monetization [00:26:00] while we are talking about monetization a lot. On podcasting. That the point is that today we are, as in very narrowly focused, looking at only a couple of avenues of monetizing the shows, there are other forms, other ways in which you might be able to earn money monetize your shows.

[00:26:17] The only thing is that you need to see how is it that you want to go about doing it. And one big problem that I've seen is that. Most of these podcasts as in good podcasts. They don't have a real estate , meaning of website on the internet. I have been a firm believer that you need to have. Website on the internet to which you will have to drive your audience, build your audience and see listeners will come and they'll go. But how is it that you're going to retain your listeners? You will only be able to retain your listeners if you drive them to some concrete space on the internet and connect with them. Continue to connect with them. In my case, , I'm extremely focused on email marketing. So , I'm building my list and I keep sending people an email with the latest episode that we release. And that gets me the initial kick in terms of the, listens for the first two, three days.

[00:27:14] So, , how is it that we are retaining those listeners, engaging with them? These are some things that are being overlooked in the podcasting space, in our market today is something that I feel. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity in terms of using podcasts to drive traffic to your blog, and then maybe using affiliate marketing as a monetization method which is something that I think people can explore.

[00:27:36]Naga S: [00:27:36] Absolutely. And what about the non podcast creators who are looking to evaluate affiliate marketing?

[00:27:43] R Dilip Kumar: [00:27:43] Affiliate marketing and in more so in the current situation, , after COVID , there are a lot of people who lost their jobs, but. What I feel is that affiliate marketing is something that is worth exploring as anybody who can put in some effort [00:28:00] into building that business affiliate marketing can be a full-time business for you.

[00:28:06] And , I'll take this from Pat Flynn's website. His website is smart, passive income, and. If you see, he talks about passive income and is somebody who's promoted, affiliate marketing so much. Then if you just go to your website, you'll be able to find that his core income source , primary income source was affiliate marketing.

[00:28:25] It's something that anybody who wants, who's looking at an alternate method of earning of income can use. There needs to be some effort you will have to put in some effort you will have to be consistent. You will have to just like in pretty much every other content marketing field, you will have to put in some effort, drive the traffic. Wait for that exponential growth to happen for people to start clicking on your links, buying products for your affiliate commissions to come in. It is not going to happen overnight, but that's extremely a good Avenue that I think people should explore. It's a very good alternate source of income.

[00:29:05] If you were somebody who doesn't want to only stick to maybe doing a job or maybe running a brick and mortar business.

[00:29:11]Naga S: [00:29:11] That's. Phenomenal insights.

[00:29:14]I'll also make sure that I include your contact information in the show notes so that people are looking to reach. You can not drop your emails and your tweet, and they can reach you for more details.

[00:29:25] Thank you for taking the time to be on the patient people podcast. This has been great.

[00:29:29]R Dilip Kumar: [00:29:29] thanks, Naga. It was a pleasure talking to you and, , I value be extremely happy if anything that I shared , it provides value to, to the audience.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

2021年02月11日

Curate and Scale a Remote Community with Abhishek Bose

Dive into how creators can curate and scale online communities as a key monetisation and engagement lever with Abhishek the chief curator of the Remote Indian Community. Abhishek is the creator of the RemoteIndian project - A vibrant community of more than 1400 members in India, some of whom are working at Doist, Gumroad, Gitlab, Prisma etc. This community enables Indian professionals to help each other navigate, balance and grow in a remote career.

Insights from the episode can be translated in context of a specific show, target audience and value to be provided.

The idea of normalising remote work in India came after Abhishek found a lot of joy working remotely as a Ruby on Rails developer in 2016. But he also realised that loneliness and lack of information is a big problem in remote work and he thought it would be more fun to solve these unique challenges as a group.

Reach out to Abhishek -

Remote Indian - https://remoteindian.com/

e-mail - abhishek@remoteindian.com

Reach out to Naga –

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

email - naagasubramanya@gmail.com

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

More about EpLog Media -

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If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

Transcript

[00:00:00] Abhishek: [00:00:00] I was always curious about this question, that, okay what is a good life

[00:00:04] the interesting part is now I actually feel heard and I feel understood. And that's the great part about, , building a community you're scratching your itch, but then you also realize there are so many other, , human needs, which are being fulfilled.

[00:00:20] The biggest of which is, , being connected with each other

[00:00:23] I wanted to. Take this microphone that I had, and give it now to the community you don't want to be a place where you're the only person holding the microphone.

[00:00:32] I want to keep it as open and accessible they might, feel that social debt of sorts to support the community

[00:00:38] Naga S: [00:00:38] H ey Abhishek hello and welcome to the passionate people podcast.

[00:00:41]Abhishek: [00:00:41] Hey Naga, It's my pleasure to be here.

[00:00:43]Naga S: [00:00:43] Abhishek in the current season. We're talking about creators and how they're monetizing in the context of COVID and in, in the spectrum of monetization. I believe that community creation is a very important aspect that a lot of creators either miss out on, or don't think about it in the right way.

[00:01:00]The reason I'm excited to be talking to you is because you have successfully, , conceptualized an idea for a community and scaled it to over a thousand members. So I'm really, really looking forward to our conversation.

[00:01:13]Abhishek: [00:01:13] Thanks. Thanks for having me, man.

[00:01:15] Naga S: [00:01:15] Super. So I think a good place to start would be just to give our listeners a background of who you are and also some background on remote Indian and we'll take it from there.

[00:01:24] Abhishek: [00:01:24] I'm a computer science grad passed out in 2010 and started off working in an MNC. This was quite a while back.

[00:01:34]I knew that, , this was something which I was always curious about this question, that, okay what is a good life and somewhere,the feeling was that going to an office job and, not having any say in where you could, , work from. I, I felt that wasn't right.

[00:01:54] And obviously I am a guy who likes to pursue my curiosities or [00:02:00] pursue my questions very seriously. So, that's how, this whole journey started. It took awhile, but after three years, I really decided that I needed to shift paths, learn Ruby on rails, on my own followed a bunch of people on Twitter and.

[00:02:16]Saw that, , they were developers like me who were making remote , work for them. And I knew that this was something better than what I had so that's how I started off with my remote journey and in August, 2017, I was working out of a coworking space in a tropical Island called Colandra.

[00:02:43] This is in Thailand. And I was, feeling really blessed and this was not the first time that I had this overwhelming feeling of joy. I had, , spent two years of working remote till then, but My fear was that this joy could be short-lived. I wanted to build some resilience into this, this joy.

[00:03:04]So one example that I, would like to give is what happens , if my client goes away or if I lose my job. when I used to speak to my friends their answers weren't, , very helpful. they would say that you could reach out to recruiters or you could, , LinkedIn is a platform that you could use, but then I knew that, the journey that I was on, it would not work out for me.

[00:03:28] And. That's where, , the idea of remote Indian started it was just a, way to build some resilience into this remote working career of sorts. And I thought that if I could be connected to folks who were working in similar companies that way, if they had any open opportunity in the company, chances were that I could have, , first dibs on it.

[00:03:51]So, yeah, but over the past three years of running the community, I started this in August, 2017. So I've been doing this for [00:04:00] more than three years now. The interesting part is now I actually feel heard and I feel understood. And that's the great part about, , building a community you're scratching your itch, but then you also realize there are so many other, , human needs, which are being fulfilled.

[00:04:17] The biggest of which is, , being connected with each other. That's pretty much, , my story now and we have grown to more than thousand members, obviously Covid had some role to play there. And as you can see, a lot of people have now started working remotely and let's see, I think I'm quite excited to see where, we can go with this

[00:04:41]Naga S: [00:04:41] Are you also continuing your remote job currently or taking care of the community? a full-time gig?

[00:04:47] Abhishek: [00:04:47] I was working till the end of last year. I felt that. Remote Indian was something which could be my life's work. And I had this financial runway of sorts. Like I had some savings, which I could, take a leap of faith here by, trying to see if remote Indian can be sustainable and.

[00:05:08]Yeah, I think this was the year where I, I hadn't planned that, things were like there would be a pandemic and all of these uncertainties would come about, but I'm happy to say that this has also been a great learning experience for me. Like just focusing only on one thing, which is remote Indian, I think helped me to clarify a lot of ideas.

[00:05:31]Naga S: [00:05:31] You mentioned about having a financial runway that allowed you to take the jump. Can you elaborate a little bit in terms of how you thought about it? How long this runway span and why that linked gave you the comfort?

[00:05:45]Abhishek: [00:05:45] Definitely. I am from a very , normal family.

[00:05:48] In my family, nobody understands what I do for a living. So in order to have that Let's say sanity, I would say like just having a a [00:06:00] safety net of sorts.

[00:06:01] I think that gives you a lot of , confidence to teach, to do whatever you want to do. So I didn't want to, I have that thought behind my head that, Hey, I'm actually, , I don't have money to pay my bills and things like that. So I had saved around one year of , my living expenses.

[00:06:19] And that's, that's how I kind of reasoned about it. That if I can get to these nimble number, which was, , $500 MRR, I think that was my minimum viable income. So I thought if I could raise that number by the end of end of 2020, then. I can, look at doing this more seriously. Otherwise the idea was to go back to a remote job and do this as a side project of sorts.

[00:06:46]

[00:06:46]Naga S: [00:06:46] And are you close to that number right now?

[00:06:50]Abhishek: [00:06:50] Yeah. I just crossed that number, 10 days back. So yeah, quite excited to finally it is that milestone and it might seem like a very small number, but for, for me, who has been trying to figure this out and make this sustainable, I think this was a very big win for me.

[00:07:10]Naga S: [00:07:10] , can you walk us through the process that you went about in terms of scaling remote Indian from. , from this, you essentially right to where it is today, how did you think about the values that the community stood for and what were some of your thoughts at the start and how, how are you thinking about the same thing?

[00:07:30]Abhishek: [00:07:30] As I mentioned right at the start, it was just about. Building my own network of sorts. Like I was kind of building my own LinkedIn rather than using LinkedIn as a platform. I was kind of, , under the impression that I needed to do this, my own way. But over this period of time, as I've, started to enjoy

[00:07:53]This idea of building a community, the three things that have worked for me, one of the first things [00:08:00] was having some rituals. So the examples that I like to share your is we have. These zoom calls every Saturday wherein I would either invite a guest and we could talk about a very unique challenge.

[00:08:17] So that was one of the things that, , build that habit, around which, the community could be built. The second example for a ritual would be the weekly newsletter that I send out. That was again, helpful that. I, was resurfacing the most valuable conversations happening in the, in the community because a lot of people wouldn't, , necessarily check Slack every week. So for them, this newsletter was a way to kind of, catch up with what things are going on. So these rituals were very important. I think every community needs to have some rituals which can hold the community together.

[00:08:53]Then the second thing, which I would like to mention is that I. Highlighted the folks whose, whose behavior I wanted to promote in the community. There were some people who have been very integral, pillars in this community and just giving them a voice or acknowledging their behavior.

[00:09:14]I think it gives you that That freedom or license to, , also feel that, okay, you're part of this and that's something , which has, , helped me a lot. So every time somebody has sent a pull request or every time somebody has collaborated with me on a particular project, I have, made it a very clear intention of, giving them a shout out or maybe sending them an Amazon voucher or something to, , make sure that this is, , what I would like.

[00:09:42] I don't want to be the lone Wolf here. And third it's a thing, which is important to me is that , being very authentic, I did not want to do something which felt uncomfortable to me. I knew for sure that if this was [00:10:00] going to be sustainable, then I cannot, , be trying to be something which I'm not someday, that facade will go away.

[00:10:08] And that's where I knew that I did not want to be very outgoing. I was comfortable in one-to-one conversations. So that's the medium which I chose and. I felt that helped me to, sustain because we go, sometimes you won't get burnt out. Right. If you're trying to do something, which is very different from what you are.

[00:10:28] These are the key ways. I've, tried to make this work.

[00:10:32]Naga S: [00:10:32] Ritual that helps keep the community together. Incentivizing good behavior. And staying true to your authentic self. Like these are the things that have worked for you. Can you also share some of the things that you tried that did not work.

[00:10:44]Abhishek: [00:10:44] I used to think in that solution mindset, I would learn something new. There will be some no-code platform maybe, which I came across and I thought that, Hey, why can't they use this to , build a member directory of things like that.

[00:10:57]But later on, these things wouldn't work out and that's, that's something which, which I realize. Second, I would say was the idea of having these body goals. The intention was to, connect people within the community, but I realized that it was a very passive way of doing it in the sense that people had to take the responsibility of Making sure that they can book a calendar reaching out to the other person, things like that.

[00:11:27] So I would say generally, things that have worked out where I have been very active and. The places where things haven't worked out wherein I have tried to, , scale too early, like I've tried to build a product Institute a system even before, qualifying that there is a problem.

[00:11:46] So I think that's a great learning on this. Yeah.

[00:11:50] Naga S: [00:11:51] That makes sense. So, in terms of your journey, right? If I'm, if I'm drawing a parallel to what a creator does versus what you do, typically creators [00:12:00] go. Through this creating content, distributing content, creating a community around the content.

[00:12:06] However, I think your journey is unique in the sense that you created the community and then you're creating content that caters to the community, whether it's the weekly newsletter, whether it is, how do you keep the community engaged by having these regions?

[00:12:20]Abhishek: [00:12:20] As of now, I think that's the, system that I'm following wherein I'm using whatever content is being created in, Slack to create my newsletter . But I would say that these different stages earlier I used to write a newsletter where the content would be.

[00:12:36] Fully created by me. So initially I will, for any community to work out, you need to have a, and number of people, again can be a number between hundred and two 50, depending on, , how the early adopters are. So in, in my case, I started off with a newsletter wherein I, I used to just.

[00:12:59]Write down my experiences and talk about the challenges that I faced or, the thoughts that I had, over a period of time, I think, it became a little narcissistic and I realized I would burn out doing this and that's where the shift happened when I wanted to. Take this microphone that I had, and I wanted to give it now to the community and, , I wanted them to ask, , but again, there's a time and place for this. I would say we can keep switching between content and community. You don't want to be a place where you're the only person holding the microphone.

[00:13:34] And. You also want to make sure that maybe, , the community feels that they also have a voice and they are being heard. Does that make sense?

[00:13:43] Naga S: [00:13:43] Yeah, absolutely. It makes a lot of sense, because like you said, when you're making a lot of the content yourself, right.

[00:13:49]You're trying to bring about certain insights. You're trying to bring about so many things that may be there, or you could be imagining them. What you're doing is you're Meta curating the newsletter, right. From content that's already [00:14:00] there, that the community has already made that I'm sure makes people feel heard and , feel like they're recognized.

[00:14:06] I remember one of those weeks where I was one of the top contributors and I was like, Hey, it made me feel nice. Seeing your name, they're feeling recognized and I'm sure that, , it's going in the right direction because I definitely felt good being there.

[00:14:18] That's something that I've specifically noticed in remote Indian, I've been a part of communities in the past where all of the communities have always been focused on themselves. It's all about taking, however, remote Indian is a first place where people were so willing to give. And that is something that really in my mind set it apart from all of the other communities that have been a part of in the past,

[00:14:41] they're so willing to answer a question to hop on a call really support each other. So what, what was it that you did apart from, having the ritual , incentivizing the good behaviors? Was there anything else that you did in order for the community to.

[00:14:54] Always be in this pay it paid forward kind of mindset.

[00:14:56]Abhishek: [00:14:56] I'm not sure what has worked to be honest, but I genuinely feel, , one of the good things which I did was having these lenghty phone conversations with some of the members the early members and stopped doing it because now there are so many people. Earlier, I used to just ping them , on Slack and just start a conversation.

[00:15:19] And then I would call them up. And in fact those were the places where it solidified the first pillars of the community. A community cannot stand only on, the shoulder of, one person.

[00:15:34]So people embody that spirit and. Then over a period of time. They transferred that same spirit with, with other members. And that's how spirit has been carried forward.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:48] Naga S: [00:15:49] In a lot of ways, it really just seems like a startup, right? Because your first few hires decide a lot about the way the culture of the organization is shaped. And it seems like it's similar in [00:16:00] community building as well, because what you've essentially done is that you've set the tone.

[00:16:03] You've set the context, you've set the values that you hold dear. And you've made sure that the , earlier adopters of the community are able to follow that. I know that those are the efforts that are now paying off as the community scales

[00:16:16] Abhishek: [00:16:17] In my case, I would say that there have been very, lucky breaks which have happened. And I'm, I'm grateful that, , I've come across people like you who have come into the community at the right moment and, share your knowledge.

[00:16:32] And that's how things have evolved.

[00:16:33] Naga S: [00:16:33] Well, one of the other things that I also wanted to get a thought, is what are the things that people should keep in mind when they're growing their community, maybe from like the first few members to the first 50 or a hundred.

[00:16:45] And then how does that evolve over time? Because I'm sure that, two years down the line, your priorities are different than from where you started and they're going to be different. , as you grow,

[00:16:54] how do you see that transition? And what are the, different things that, you focused on till now? And what will you be focusing on in the future?

[00:17:00] Abhishek: [00:17:00] I think, , the, the most important thing for any person who is doing this from scratch would be to. The a hundred or two 50 people, that's the magic number, which of sorts where in the community actually feels like a community. Nobody wants to hang out in a ghost town. Right? .

[00:17:17] Great part about building your own thing. You can make a lot of mistakes and just say that you learn from them. So if I had to do it again, I would definitely, , focus more on distribution. I would say if you are creating value, I think an example would help you in remote Indians case.

[00:17:35]One of the things that, could have been done or, , like it was done to some degree was curation of knowledge. There's so much content being thrown around on the internet about remote work. So if I had to really get my first hundred or, get the attention of first a hundred to two 50 people, I would spend some time creating value.

[00:17:57]Curating this content. I think that's the [00:18:00] easiest way to spark, a conversation of sorts. And once you have those number of people, I think then the, the question is that if you , sometimes an audience makes sense. You can just, , keep it as a, as a newsletter of sorts.

[00:18:15] The important question is that do you feel the value of the project going to increase. If you activate all these nodes, there are two 50 people now in your newsletter and let's say, , you give everybody a voice now, if they feel that, okay, now we also can participate in this process of creation. That's the way to go about it. I did it to some degree, but it took a really long time for me.

[00:18:37] I think it took me almost two years to get to 250 members. So that's something which I would, say is one of the key learning points, getting to your first 250 members very quickly. , you can use Twitter, Instagram, , any of the places where folks are already hanging.

[00:18:52]How things have changed. I feel that there's, there's this constant dance between being very personal. Having these phone conversations with specific members, so you have to keep that element also there, but at the same time, you have to also think about scale.

[00:19:09]So there's this constant, dance that any community manager has to do you don't necessarily want to, take that personal element away, but at the same time, just to make sure that more people can find value, you have to start thinking in those elements. So that could mean instituting some systems that could mean, identifying people who can run the community on your behalf, you don't necessarily need to be the only one who moderates the community.

[00:19:38]. You want to identify other leaders as well. Iterations are the only way to, , figure it out what works and what doesn't and feel if you can do these small experiments.

[00:19:49]That helped me a lot. I would maybe ship a small product and see whether it resonates with the community or not. Do these zoom calls almost on a, weekly basis. At the [00:20:00] end of the day it's it's consistency. How consistent you are, how persistent you are with this.

[00:20:04] Naga S: [00:20:05] You said it's about bringing value to the community. And initially you brought value to the community by curating content around remote work. And right now I see value being driven to the community by the numerous remote work opportunities that get posted on the sander, the ability to interact with experts and get that clarified, which could.

[00:20:25]In most other circumstances would be paid advice, and people are only giving advice because it's that important in community. Now, the community members are deriving value. You've got a critical mass of 250 people or a thousand people. How should. Community managers think about monetizing because in the start you mentioned that you've hit kind of a target milestone of $500 of MRR.

[00:20:49] It is an interesting way of putting it, but how did you think about monetization and, any thoughts in terms of how community managers should think about value and how that value can be translated into monetary contribution for the community manager, especially for folks who want to do this for time, like you.

[00:21:07]Abhishek: [00:21:07] This is definitely the thing that I've struggled the most. I've seen many people run, paid communities where. They would just have a paywall of sorts that if you want to join the Slack community, you have to pay this membership fee. I wasn't sure that, I could do that because I don't have that pedigree

[00:21:27]so that's one of the things that I realized, and I also, read this book called gift economy. And there's the other, another one, which is big magic. So the big, I guess, learning that I've gotten, , from, from reading these two books is that creativity shouldn't be responsible for paying my bills.

[00:21:51]So now what I'm trying to do is using a donation based business model, and there are a couple of products which are, my favorites. One [00:22:00] is Wikipedia and the other is Khan Academy. I think those two products have shown the way

[00:22:06]I am experimenting with this similar kind of model because for different people, will find different utility out of it. Right. And secondly, I want to keep it as open and accessible. For some members, they might not have the means right now, but they could use the community to improve their financial situation later on.

[00:22:28] They might, feel that social debt of sorts to support the community. That's the thesis of sorts. And recently I came across this Version of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for a creator. This was shared by Le Jin. If she's the one who coined, the term Passion Economy.

[00:22:47] So what she says is that the first level is the fulfillment that you get from creating. That's where somebody has to start from. You cannot start from monetization, for any creative project. So one has to, Have that fulfillment, that should be the number one reason for creating anything.

[00:23:02]then you go on and build an audience or a community. And the third level is, which is basically, Nirvana. So it's, this is monetization. If we can crack that bit. I think you have reached the top level and it's definitely, a blessing, if you can get paid

[00:23:20] Still a long way to go, man. I feel this is, this is just a start. People are figuring out different ways and models and not one way can necessarily, be considered the golden standard of sorts. So for me, I'm, going with this idea of the gift economy, I'm trying to put out work, I'm trying to, share as much knowledge , make as many connections as possible.

[00:23:46] The thesis is that people will find enough value to become patrons. And that's what has, happened. I now have more than 40 patrons who are, supporting me. So there's no fixed amount that you have to pay it's depending on what they feel, the [00:24:00] value that you're getting.

[00:24:00] It's a very interesting kind of a model. And I I would like to, double down on this.

[00:24:05]Naga S: [00:24:05] As we wrap up our episode for people who are listening in where can they join the Remote Indian community and get to see and experience the magic that you do that. And also , any closing thoughts.

[00:24:17]Abhishek: [00:24:17] I think people can go to the website, remote indian.com.

[00:24:21]That's the main landing page for the community. And once they sign up there, they will receive an invite to the Slack group. That's essentially the home of the remote Indian community right now. Closing thoughts would be that we are kind of living in an Renaissance era of sorts where, this is a Renaissance era for creators, and I'm quite excited to see, , the possibilities that more and more platforms are being built.

[00:24:50] It's essentially becoming easier to do this as a full-time thing. So I am quite curious and excited to, see how the world, the, passionate economy or the creator economy evolves

[00:25:06] Naga S: [00:25:06] fantastic. I think you've shared some really great insights, basic things in terms of hiding that creators are curating. The first community need to keep in mind and also, , a lot of good input in terms of what worked for you and what didn't.

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